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I'll probably loose a couple of friends because of this, anyways I wrote a small piece for Ikhwan Wen here

أبشروا الهيئة الحزبية العليا للتدوين (الممولة سرا من قبل جماعة تلاتين فبراير) توغلت و أنتشرت و بدأت تخترق جماعة الأخوان المسلمين.

و خليكوا فاكرين، الأول القاهرة و بعدين تل أبيب.

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Let's Be Adventurous

Alaa Abd El Fattah - Cairo, Egypt

Monday, July 24, 2006

I promised to write a short message to the Muslim Brotherhood youth; the ones I've met in prison and on the streets; the ones I consider comrades. However, it's very difficult to write anything these days and avoid mentioning Lebanon, so let's go with the flow.

I'm sure most of you support HizbAllah just like me. I'm sure most of you got excited about their recent actions and I'm sure most of you are as annoyed as I'm with the people criticizing HizbAllah for their "adventure"

There are many things I don't like about the Muslim Brotherhood, but the one thing that annoys me the most is their tendency not to be adventurous. I've heard many arguments from respected Brotherhood leaders about how a large organization like the Ikhwan needs to move with caution, and how it is a duty to protect the Brotherhood members and their families from our tyrannical government. There is no doubt those are very reasonable arguments, however, when people say these arguments while discussing HizbAllah's adventure we defend it, we find answers to these reasonable arguments. We argue that sometimes staying safe is not an option, and that you have to sacrifice and pay the price of your adventure than pay the price of sitting idly and waiting.

look at the state we live in, look at how hopeless we Egyptians have become; look at how the government cracks down on citizens even if they don't get involved in politics at all; look at how optimistic and proud HizbAllah's adventure made us. Yet you Muslim Brotherhood remain conservative in your actions and moving slowly. Even the younger generations od the Muslim Brothers are cautious!. Isn't it part of being young to be daring and a bit reckless? don't you all burn inside with the need to act, the need to do something? the urge to engage in an "adventure"?

Whenever someone tries to convince me that the Brotherhood is no good, that as a secularist and a leftist I should consider them my enemies instead of my comrades; I think of two adventures that the Brotherhood youth shared with other political powers in Egypt; one is the Free Student Union and the second is the judges solidarity protests. These two adventures are an example of when creativity, energy, daring and sense of adventure in us the youth of Egypt, were coupled with the courage and compassionate support of the not so young Egyptians who are a bit more experienced in political work came together and united us all in beautiful acts of resistance and made me feel as proud and optimistic as I felt when I first heard the news about HizbAllah's adventure.

I guess what I'm trying to say albeit very clumsily is let's take a leaf from HizbAllah and go on more adventures together.

cheers,
Alaa

Ikhwanweb: Alaa Abd El Fattah is a famous Egyptian blogger whose writings have inspired many young Egyptians to be more engaged in political activites. Alaa was recently released from jail after he was arrested during latest protests in solidarity with Egypt's pro-reform judges. You can visit his website at www.manalaa.net which is maintained by him and his wife Manal.

Commentary by Ikhwanweb

Dear Alaa,

You are right. What our beloved Egypt needs the most during these stagnate times of its political life is the energy and the creativity of its youth coupled with the wisdom of its elders in order to sail safely towards freedom and prosperity. We have to understand that Hizbollah is fighting a ruthless occupation that has no regard to the sanctity of human life, and the struggle that Hizbollah is enduring is quite different from that of the Muslim Brotherhood.

Yes, it is sometimes healthy for any political movement to be adventurous if the surrounding circumstances force it to go that route, however, any adventure has to be always calculated especially when the future of a whole nation is at stake, otherwise we will create chaos and enable our adversaries to undermine our cause.

As you alluded to in your message, the Egyptian opposition is always able to deliver when it is united and this is what we should all make it a top priority. There is no difference between Muslim Brothers, leftists, or liberals as long as we are all united in our love to this country and in our pursuit of democracy and reform.

Sincerely,
Khaled Salam
Editor

Comments

This is insane. Granted, Israel has unproportionally committed war crimes and crimes against humanity in both Lebanon and Palestine, this does not justify Hizballah’s firing at civilians in Haifa. A crime against humanity is a crime against humanity irrespective of any context. I am not sure how we can, with good conscience, support Hizballah for that. Unless we Arabs feel ok to respond to Israel’s racism with our own brand of counter racism: “17 Israeli civilians killed, now who gives a flying fuck about that!” And I am not sure what resistance you are talking about. Hizballah has started this whole issue by abducting the two Israeli soldiers. Ok forget the backing from Iran and Syria theory. If Hizballah “adventure” was meant to show support for Palestinians, then it miserably failed. That was not an act of resistance, but a gamble at best. It gave Israel the perfect excuse for unleashing its own state terror. Now the whole Lebanese people need our support.

I don't know much about international law so I will not comment of the crime against humanity thingie.

as for racism, I never support that, being anti-israel or anti-zionist should never be confused with being anti-jew, I know many don't make that distinction and I know the dominance of islamism in the palestinian and lebanese resistance is actually encouraging this trend but hey we're working on it.

now we come to the is it wrong to kill Israeli civilians question.

IMO no it isn't, it's not like you went and bombed them in their countries, they're being killed in the lands they occupied, if they don't like it, they can

  1. join the resistance (the peaceful one if they don't like killing zionists)
  2. go back to where they came from
  3. go somewhere else

now the very young children who did not get a chance to make that decision, yeah I feel sorry for them.

do you say abducting when you talk about soldiers in a war zone? is a POW abducted? maybe, but no Israel started the whole issue when it occupied palestinian, lebanese and syrian land.

how do you know it failed? I mean did you poll palestinians and they said they felt no solidarity? or do you mean the price paid was too big for such a small achievment?

also the official story is this is to pressure for prisoner exchange, we're yet to see if this fails.

the Iran theory goes something like, HizbAllah opened another front to lower the chances of an Israeli strike against Iranian nuclear sites, I'm not sure how we can ever hope to prove if this was ever true and how we can prove if it succeeded or not.

but I can't have a defenitive opinion about the ethics of armed struggle since I know nothing about armed struggle or living in war zone or living under occupation. so I'll leave that to the lebanese. ask me again when I've spent a couple of years fighting amn el dawla with rockets and machine guns and maybe I'll have a more defenitive answer :-)

When the government is doing their work for them?

you'll have to explain this one for me

I just mean that while the government is supporting the international calls for an immediate cease-fire (which I also support), a lot of people are wondering why the government isn't doing more. A friend who just got back from the Delta says a lot of the people in his village are wondering why the army isn't giving them guns and sending them to the border. This perceived inaction makes the government look bad, which benefits the Brothers, if they continue making the right noises.

"now the very young children who did not get a chance to make that decision, yeah I feel sorry for them. "

Around 70% of the Israeli Jews were born in Israel,mostly second or third generation Israelis.

So, where do you suggest they should go? I met an Israeli whose parents were forced out of Iraq in the fifties. Should they move there, along with their children and grand-children? What about the Israeli Egyptians who had to leave? Do we accept them back in Egypt?

What are we Arabs (yes, I'm Egyptian) looking for? We should at least know where we're going. So here are 3 options: 1. Wipe Israel out of the map. And like you said, Israelis should find somewhere else to live. 2. Israeli and Palestinians live side by side in 2 separate states, whereas Israel withdraws from the land occupied during 1967. 3. Israeli and Palestinians live side by side in 1 secular state, call it whatever. P.S. Around 15% of Israeli population are Arab Israelis (not couting Arabs living in East Jerusalem).

Oh forgot the 4th option (the preferred one at the moment): Spread hatred, keep cheering "vive la resistance" until the last palestinian and now the last lebanese dies. As long as a few Israelis are killed, the few of us left would declare victory.

no I don't sympathize with the 70% who where born there since they mostly choose to accept orders and serve in the army, some of them chooses to become or remain setllers, and they choose to elect politicians who will clearly continue the occupation and the killing.

so they could go wherever they feel like it or become palestinians, or just die.

the only solution that could be fair for those 70% is the secular democratic single state solution. I'd love to see that happen, but it won't until a majority of the Israelis become anti zionist (and not just not zionist, or not very zionist).

the question of the Arab jews who where forced to migrate is a more difficult one off course, it was a major crime to deport them from their homelands and it was the most stupid thing to do for the cause (it did supply a large labor force that could have been provided by the palestinians instead thus creating a situation similar to south africa).

but realize that I did not say I'm offering a practical solution, I don't think I know enough to offer one, what I'm saying is it doesn't bring tears to my eyes when they die, why? because they choose to support the zionist state they where forced to live in, they did not choose to fight it or work to change it.

those few who did choose to fight it and work to change it are the only ones I'd feel sorry for. this was about sympathy not about good solutions.

tab3an it is never that simple, the palestinians who have Israeli nationality or live within the 1967 borders are still palestinians, that's their land and an attack on civilians is bound to hit them.

wipe israel the zionist state is the only acceptable and stable solution, this could mean a single secular state or driving all the non arabs out, or driving all the jews out. I clearly prefer a secular state, but I wouldn't feel too bad about the two other scenarios.

the whole 1967 borders thingie is never going to work IMO, the problem is not just about the borders and the refugees, the problem is that the zionist state is a racist state and is an agent of imperialism, people are seriously discussing the posibility of Israel striking Iranian nuclear facilities, people in Egypt seriously discuss the possibility of Israeli military intervention if the masses mobilize and elect a government that won't bow down to US interests. same for lebanon and syria.

wiping Israel (defined as the zionist state) is a mecessary act, if the Israelis want to live in peace they should work on it.

"no I don't sympathize with the 70% who where born there since they mostly choose to accept orders and serve in the army, some of them chooses to become or remain setllers, and they choose to elect politicians who will clearly continue the occupation and the killing.

so they could go wherever they feel like it or become palestinians, or just die."

i think this statement is very harsh. According to this reasoning a car full of explosives hitting el Omranya police station and indiscriminately killing anyone who might be around, including some pupils from the school across the street, is a justified act. After all we, the Egyptian people, are the ones funding the ruthless police forces that commit acts not less barbaric than those committed by Israel. If one of those killed in my younger brother, I should not feel sorry for him because he was going to be drafted and obey orders whatever these orders are, and therefore, according to your reasoning, death is a just reward. Please give it another thought. Indiscriminate killing of noncombatants is despicable and unjustifiable.

I'm not advocating that you should not sympathize with the israelis, I'm saying I don't.

I don't have to be consistant about my sympathies, but I'll bite.

the situation you describe is different since you'll actually be killing the people who suffer from the injustice when you bomb the police station, the fact that the ones who suffer are the same as the ones who pay taxes is irrelevant here.

if you brother is an officer in omraneya police station then he deserves to die yes. unless he actually takes a stand against torture or resigns.

wether it is stratigically a good thing to kill your brother officer is a different story, but no I won't feel any sympathy for him, I never felt sympathy for the officers who died while fighting armed islamists and terrorist groups for instance. but I don't advocate killing officers, it just isn't a smart move.

same for the Israeli civilians, except I can't tell if it's strategically a smart move or not and if it's nessecary or not.

but I digress, there is an easy solution out of it and it is in the hands of the Israelis more than anyone else, a single secular democratic state.

A departure from the subject, my brother is not a police officer he is a lawyer. There is not a single police officer in my first and second degree relatives and I do not recall anyone even applying for the police academy. I was just trying to put myself in the shoes of a poor family with an ignorant son that was drafted to the anti riot police.

with respect to the single secular democratic state, I agree with you 100% percent that this is the only viable solution and that the two state solution is a delusion used to take more land and strengthen the Zionist project. But with the Palestinians electing Hamas that has in its charter a Hadith from Sahih Muslim that advocates the annihilation of the Jews do you expect many Jews to support such a solution, taking into account their history of failed coexistence?

I am not mentioning this hadith or other racist and hate loaded articles from hamas charter as the core of the problem; I use it as an illustration for the mindset of hamas, the legitimate democratically elected representative of the Palestinians.

Advocating the one state solution for the Jews with Hamas on the other side presumes that the Jews are very very brave. i would not blame them if they are not.

I knew it was a hypothetical brother, and I talked about officers, a drafter soldier is another thing.

you see amn markazy soldiers are performing a task that should not be done by conscripts to begin with, and they face very dire consequences if they elect not to perform it, and they don't get paid for it.

conclusion, Amn Markazy soldiers are slave labourers, I can't blame slaves for their work.

yes a sectarian sometimes racist and fanatically religious resistance organization makes it very difficult to get to the single state solution, but hey it's mostly Israeli policies and actions that created Hamas and HizbAllah, they had years in which the dominant resistance was secular, they got their chance, even the half assed peace process got it's fair chance.

and yes it would take great bravery to undo the great crimes you created or inherited (I mean it takes great bravery to topple a corrupt regime like mubarak's, how about toppling the ideas of zionism inside yourself and your society). but it's the Israelis only hope of survival, they're never going to win this war, they might never loose it either but that doesn't translate to safety and prosperity.

oh and only civilian deaths will drive this point through, if the resistance kills combatants only, it might become more ethical, but it will not achieve much.

I am glad to see hear you saying that killing those Israeli civilians is unethical. And I lament the fact that you are willing to sacrifice something that is right in principle for a strategic purpose (of driving the point through). Again, maybe because you feel that the lives of those civilians are not as worthy. Your judgment of a person’s ideological views should really have nothing to do with their rights to the very chance to live, since we, tragically, have but only one chance. Ok I have to go to work, but it was pleasure debating this with you, as always.

the way I see it, it's a choice between Israeli lives and Arab lives, and to me they are not equal.

not because arabs are my tribe, but because the Israelis are suicidal occupiers who insist on putting these choices in front of us.

read my post about the ethical questions if you're interested.

بالمناسبة أنا الأنونيموس بتاع القانون الإنساني الدولي. معلش، أنا بس محبتش أن شخضيتي تأثر على الحوار لكن أنا فعلا مختلف معاك. أنا مش بس مستغرب أن انت تايد حزب الله تأييد مطلق بس يبدو كمان أن انت مؤييد تماما لفكرة يالا نحارب و دي حاجة أنا فعلا مش شاييف وجاهتها. اعتقد أن تأييد وقف اطلاق النار هو الشيئ المنطقي بدل اللعب بكروت التيارات الإسلامية إلي هي في اغلب الأمر من نوع "اليهود كلهم عايزين الحرق" على العموم الموقف فعلا صعب.

مين قال تأييد مطلق قلتها فين دي؟

أولا أنا بتكلم عن لحظة محددة مش عن حزب الله في المطلق، ثانيا أنا قلت في حاجات مليش رأي فيها بما أني حمار مفهمش بس مستغرب الحمير اللي زيي اللي ليهم رأي قاطع (زي مدى جدوى التحرك العسكري الفلاني).

أنا مع أن ضرب لبنان يقف دلوقتي، بخاف بس من كلمات من نوع وقف اطلاق النار، دي معناها ايه؟ أن الجيش الاسرائيلي هينسحب للحدود ولا معناها هيفضلوا محاصرين بس ميضربوش؟

و بعدين العملية سهلة، يتفاوضوا على تبادل أسرى، هما اللي عايزين النار.

أنا مش شايف أني أقدر أحكم على وجاهة تحرك عسكري، لما أشيل سلاح أبقى أقولك رأيي.

و مشفتش حزب الله بيقول اليهود كلهم عايزين الحرق.

مين الحمار إلي زيك إلي ليه رأي قاطع؟ معلش بس الجملة ظريفة. أعتقد أن تأييد حزب الله في اللحظة دي بالذات و خاصة عشان روح "المغامرة" و بدون أي تحفظات إنت ذكرتها في المقال، يعتبر رأي قاطع بشكل كافي على الأقل بالنسبة لي. نستنتج إذا إن كل حمار و ليه الرأي القاطع بتاعه.

الجدوى مرة تانية كانت ليها علاقة بكل المدنيين إلى ماتوا و المشرديين و البنية التحتية للدولة اللبنانية إلخ يعني بتقديم الفرصة الذهبية لإسرائيل عشان يعملوا إلى هما عايزينه. أي حاجة كان حزب الله عايز يعملها في مقابل ده متسواش و على فكرة حتى لو كان هدفهم الأساسي دعم المقاومة الفلسطينية و حتى لو المساجيين السياسيين طلعوا. يش بالتمن ده و مش على قفى المدنيين.

ده رأيي.

Alaa, first thank you for the intelligent response. I definitely suggest that you seriously look into the question of the international law. This conflict basically falls under article 3 of the Geneva conventions which is designed to protect civilians and non-combatants. This article also covers the conflicts between state parties and non-state parties. Under this article, killing those Israeli civilians (and of course the Lebanese civilians by Israel) is in fact a slam dunk case of crimes against humanity. For all intents and purposes, those people were clearly non-combatants. Also by the way, how do you know that those civilians were not in fact anti-Zionists? Maybe they were, but bombs directed into civilian areas create a situation in which all the cows are black.

Also another motive to look into the IHL is that we cannot as Arabs and/or human rights activist call on the US to treat detainees humanely and according to the Geneva conventions while at the same time ignoring those conventions when it is convenient for us.

The other issue is that as Kahramana points out below is that you seem to think of the situation as one frozen in 1949. Well it is not. There were generations born in Israel that absolutely have the right to stay in this land just as Palestinian refugees have the right to return. You cannot ask them to leave because their government is oppressive. Suppose for the hell of it that Sudan acquired nuclear weapons and started bombing Egypt for what happened to Sudanese refugees. Can the Sudanese gov ask you to leave because by staying where you were born, you are implicitly supporting the oppressive Mubarak regime?

Sure, how do I know it failed. Excuse me if I feel that the killing of more than 350 civilians and the destruction of the infrastructure of a whole country besides the half million refugees was not worth the trouble. Also, I am to say the least skeptical that Israel will accept the prisoners exchange. But we’ll see.

Also the capturing of soldiers cannot be said to fall under the category of prisons of war because they were not combatants, as the fight started subsequent to the capturing and not before it. It was only for the sake of prisons exchange. Again under the Geneva conventions this constitutes hostage taking which is a war crime.

Believe I think that Israel is a terrorist state and I fully support the Palestinian cause, but the choice between Israel and Hizballah seems to be already a bad choice. Sure Hizoballah cannot but be thanked to the resistance when Israel was occupying. Now that situation is radically different and it calls for people with critical minds to actually think through what is happening instead of hastily taking sides.

there is a whole chicken and egg thing to the question of international law, do you abide international law when fighting a state that is ignoring it? that's a more generic question really, for instance many activists will try never to break any laws, some will only break bad laws, and some will have no problem breaking any laws as long as the state is using torture faking elections and generally breaking the law all the time.

I never have clear answers to these grand ethical questions, I don't feel I have the right to discuss the ethics of it when I've never lived in such a situation.

cause typically there is another side to the question, which goes something like, if the resistance has no access to high precision weapons and this is the only harm they can inflict on the occupiers should they choose to attack and hurt civilians or not?

and I can't see why you are confident about the answer to that question, if we can't use international law to help our cause (we've been trying, it doesn't work, Israel and the US choose to ignore international law and nothing happens, not to mention that with the whole veto thing international law is biased) why should we abide by it.

as to how do I know, I don't know and I didn't say those civilians are not anti zionists, I just said I don't feel sorry for them unless they're anti zionists, I don't know the individuals who dies but I can make a guess at the percentage of anti zionists among them based on what I know about the country as a whole.

I don't agree that Israelis born in palestine as children of occupiers who support the occupation have the right to stay, nothing is absolute about it. and don't give me the their government is oppressive bullshit, their society is oppressive, they choose their own fucking government, they serve in the army, they build settlements, like any human being they have the ability to CHOOSE and most of them choose to support the current state of afairs.

your sudan example doesn't apply here, cause no one in Egypt is an occupier since hundreds of years, and cause the act you describe is an act of revenge and not resistance. and cause no one choose mubarak. and because the sudanese state is as guilty as the Egyptian state in the first place. and cause we don't know for sure that most Egyptians actively support killing the refugees, and cause we know for sure that most Egyptians did not participate in it (while most Israeli's did participate in the occupation, by just being occupiers).

the question about failure was really just asking how you thought about it, I generally judge failure in terms of the goals of those who took the act, not on my own terms, I mean Israel isn't a failure cause they achieve what they set to achieve even though it involves alot of damage to the otherside and incurs never ending damage to their side (suicide bombings and stuff).

hmmm again I said I don't know international law, you said they where captured before the fight, what does "the fight mean"? a specific battle? or the armed conflict in general? the way HizbAllah see it they always lived in war with Israel, it never stopped, if for the sake of argument you accept that as the truth is that enough to make it a PoW case?

now about occupying, I don't think Israel can be fought in this segmented manner, to artificially draw borders then say that's lebanon, that's syria, that's egypt, that's palestine, palestinians should fight for palestine only, syrians should fight for syria only and lebanese should fight for lebanon only will not work.

as long as we have prisoners and occupied lands the occupation is still on and Israel should be fought, the choice of which fronts to open should be mostly strategic (as long as the people living closest to the front support it).

what I'm saying is if it makes sense strategically to fight from sinai, and if the people who live in Sinai and by the suez canal support it then I'm ok with it, even though you could claim no Egyptian land is occupied.

I'm not very happy that the choices are between Israel and radical islamists either, I would have loved to see a strong socialist resistance movement, more secular nationalists and stuff, but I don't make the choices. I'll take HizbAllah over Israel anyday.

this is all academic and off topic though, this post wasn't about HizbAllah to begin with :-)

The right to veto by the way has nothing to do with the Geneva Conventions. The right is veto has to do with the way the UN was historically set up. I agree with you, the right to veto is bullshit and I am also against it, but that does not discredit the IHL. I am not going to address grand ethical questions either, but there are a lot of merits to adhering to the IHL, even though it could be said to be not perfectly even. If you decide to ignore it then there is simply no legitimacy to ask for Iraqi detainees to be treated humanely, and there would be no way you can diplomatically argue with Israel about the Palestinian or Lebanese cause. There will be just sheer power and power would by default constitute right. I do not see how you can condone that especially that realistically speaking, the US and Israel are very capable of wiping the whole middle east off the map (and I think they would be glad to do it). Only international law and global public opinion is stopping them. Need I remind you of all the wars we lost to Israel including the October way by the way which is “won” by sheer diplomatic pressure?

I very much disagree with you and I think that there is a right for Israeli’s born there to stay in fact even if they support Israel. The ideological views of a person have nothing to do with their rights to stay where one is born. We can debate that Israel is an oppressive state and an oppressive society (to which I agree), and we can debate a one secular state solution, but in any case that does not change the fact that Israelis who were born there have the right to stay.

I know that this post was not about Hizbollah I guess I was just a bit disheartened by how you very easily and unconditionally condone Hizbollah’s actions, even recommend adventurism (even though I know you mean something specific by it) to MB. And at the end, I think the support for the Judges does show that such adventures are worthwhile. But on the other hand I really fear that, as Nora Younis, said in one of her recent posts, the support for the Lebanese cause is easily descending to anti-Semitic madness. My expectations from secular Egyptians was therefore to be more rational in dealing with the situation and show that being against Israel does not lead to “khaibar khaibar ya yahud” type slogans.

yeah but not feeling sorry for dead zionists doesn't equal saying khaibar khaibar ya yahood either.

I'm willing to fight racism even while lebanon is being bombed, but I will not say I'm against killing zionists occupying palestine. I will not say I'm pro killing zionists occupying palestine either, that is for the Lebanese, palestenians and syrians to decide, I'll support their decision that's all.

Well, before talking about international law you should take into consideration that international law is very stretchy. It is all up to interpretation, and there is no definite right or wrong, especially that most scholars agree that international law changes by time.

Having that said, I must add that in the international law I know, settlers are legitimate military targets. Now for most this strictly applies to the settlers in the West Bank and Gaza, but you can argue the same for "normal Israeli civilians" if you consider them settlers.

Furthermore, one can argue that Hezbollah is not exactly targetting civilians, but rather targetting "strategic targets". I know it doesn't make much of a difference, but believe me in international law it does.

Finally, I would like to hear about the war in which civilians were not targetted. Many people talk about it these days that I began to think it really took place

the war on drugs? muwahahahahaha

come to think of it, I fell in a trap here, you should never discuss ethics with the law (anylaw) as your foundation, laws try to imitate ethics, ethics come before law.

it is not unethical to make illegal copies of software, it is illegal to do so.

couldn't agree more, 7elwa mennak :)

bass still in international law you have some leeway to mix ethics with law - using the so called "liberal" discourse in international law, u know "jus cogens" and stuff

Just to embark on one of those dry conversations, as you said, strictly speaking there are settler in Gaza and the West Bank. Why should I do deviate from this strict interpretation of ‘settler’?

Actually I do not think you can argue that Hizballah is after strategic targets. Strategic targets are usually dual purpose targets, that is, they are targets that could in most cases be used by the military and civilians. Bridges and highways do fall under this category, while apartment buildings do not.

wether the target is strategic or not depends on the strategy right?

I know nothing about HizbAllah's strategy

Wrong actually. It does not depend on Hizballah’s strategy but as indicated in the IHL, it depends on the nature of the target itself. Heavily populated apartment buildings do not qualify for “strategic targets” or technically speaking “dual targets” at all.

oh I didn't know "strategic targets" was a term in IHL, thought you where making a generic statement about strategy.

well as I said I don't know much about international law, will have to get my dad to tell me about it one day.

Hi Alaa,

I love your spirit. They should clone you and put a copy in every street corner, bar, mosque and church in this country. You have such a commanding, impassioned voice. Chapeau.

Now the pleasantries are over, I do agree with you that if we just sit around twiddling our thumbs nothing will ever change. I read somewhere once about the head of the Chinese student's movement who led the Tianamen square protests which left hundreds dead. A reporter asked what drove him to this and he responded with a parable (your frog story reminded me of it a bit): He said that an ant colony was once about to be destroyed. The volcanic mountain it lived in was erupting and the only way to save themselves was by forming a big ball and rolling down the mountain before it was too late. The ants on the outermost layer were the toughest but they had to sacrifice themselves to save the others.

I like the analogy and it seems that you're trying to say the same thing here.

But... BIG BUT... unless those on the frontline are unflinching and powerful on so many fronts, at best their adventure will be no more than an absurd tragedy.

The probelm in Egypt now is the constant finger-pointing, labeling and steroetyping to which each group subjects the other. I personally don't believe a coup will necessarily lead to a better state. We've been there, done that. If only the opposition would unit under one leadership so we could have two contending parties Them (NDP) and Us (the rest of the country) the real adventure for freedom and justice will take shape. Slowly but surely we will get there only if we stop being exclusionists.

The problem is we are unaware of the power of unity. We are infinitely stronger than Them but we have a crisis of leadership and a lot of times I feel that the so-called intelligentsia look down on the "masses" they claim to speak for. Grass roots work is what's needed here not kneejerk reactions.

That said I support the July 26 rally 100% and if I were in Cairo I'd definitely join.

One more thing, I'm in London now working on my MA journalism final project. It's a website about Egyptian political blogs (surprise ...surprise!!!) I want to interview you for it, so could you please email me on [email protected] Last time I left you a note you were on obligatory leave in Tora. I would really appreciate the contact.

Salam Rania

PS I don't think you're a 5th columnist khaales. I'm a practicing Muslim but one's faith (or lack of) is their own business. Besides, the "friends" you'll lose for speaking to the Ikhwan are precisely the kind of exclusionists I spoke of...so I wouldn't lose sleep over them.

I hope you did not think I was suggesting a coup or anything like that, any change that does not come from the masses is not for real, if X comes to power through the masses it has the potential of being a positive thing, if X comes via any other means then it's a freaking disaster.

agree on the grassroots work and all, not sure if it's a leadership crisis though, maybe it will be better without BIG LEADERS.

email me @ [email protected] (the email is on the front page BTW, how come you people never manage to find it?)

one shouldn't take friends lightly, but if I can tolerate capitalist pigs who use Micro$oft then surely ...

مش مستغرب ده منك.... i think you've lost more than a couple of friends....

بالتوفيق

I do not think that the extreme caution with which the MB’s are moving in the battle for democracy and freedom is because of their not being adventurers or , as they put it, wise.

Their primary battle front, based on their literature and the enormous amount of effort dedicated to it, is the islamization of the society. Democracy and freedom for them are of a secondary importance. They are considered more as means, to achieve the primary target, than as ends of themselves. They evade the serious issue that an Islamized society can be subdued to a theocrat dictator very easily if the democratic institutions are not strong enough to ensure that the people remain the only sovereign regardless of who rules. Furthermore, many of them still reject the fundamental concept of the sovereignty of the people which is the motor of all modern movements of change and liberation.

In short, they would not risk their necks so that a western model of state reigns, in which people like you e will have a say in the society more than the deceased Sayed Kotb and Hassan El-bana. They would rather wait ages till the society becomes 100% islamized so that those who oppose the Islamic state, whatever this might be, will be lynched by the masses in a “democratic way”. Perhaps the lynching will be moral and social, but who knows.

I actually suspect that this might be one reason why they move so slowly and why they still retain people with clear ties with the government (including MPs who support putting journalists in prison and MPs who support internet censorship).

BUT, do we know for sure that this is the position of most of the Ikhwan? do we know that most of the rank and file think like that? do we know for sure that most of the leadership on all it's levels thinks like that?

if you know an Ikhwani who truely wants democracy isn't that enough for you to work with her?

to me I'd never even put the question this way, I never thought of asking people what do you belong to, we worked together wi khalas, but since some people hold the position that you should treat everyone this way except the Ikhwan it became a topic in itself.

Of course you should encourage and cooperate with any person with whom you share common goals even if these goals are very specific, e.g. organizing a sit in or distributing a pamphlet etc. however, you should not be optimistic that this person will be supportive to you all the way when he/she is a loyal member of a an organization that does not appreciate your ultimate goals.

The MB’s are not precisely a transparent organization. Therefore the answers to a lot of questions, like the ones you asked, remain ambiguous.

Only a handfull of inaccessible people know, actually decide, what the answers to these questions are. I just do not share your optimism that the MB’s might use their considerable weight in a struggle for democracy and freedom.

Amgad thanx for the very rational comments, it's rare to get them when discussing the Ikhwan.

I agree one shouldn't be too optimistic when working with people with deep ideological differences (not just the ikhwan), and off course the stronger they are relative to you the less optimistic you should be, that's all reasonable. I can't help being an optimist in general though, I mean if I wasn't I would be bitching full time about kefaya, the socialists, the human rights NGOs etc.

and yes the MB is not a transparent organization and obviously this is by design, which makes it easy for them to collaborate with just about everyone without tying themselves, and they have a wonderful record of betraying other opposition forces in the crucial moment (their conduct in universities is a total ma2sah for instance).

but still, while only a handful of people think they have the power to answer those questions I still believe their rank and file will not silently follow the handful regardless of what they choose, I also don't think the handful are evil, I think they're just trying to avoid splitting the brotherhood into seperate entities.

my optimisim is in the brothers I stood with in the streets and the brothers I shared a cell with and the thousands like them, it does not come from their history, literature or leadership.

Alaa, you are not a fifth columnist, you are a brave young man! I read with great interest your message to the MB, and I hope this would be a good start towards more dialogue and coordination with MB youth, who share the same concern about the dismal state of human rights in Egypt, as other secular activists do.

لا أدري ما أقول. كان من الأحرى لك أن تلتزم بنشر الرسالة دون إضافة الكلام الغريب عن جماعة 30 فبراير تغزو الإخوان المسملين...ألخ...

أخبرني بالله عليك..كيف سوف يتمكن تنظيمكم بأفراده الذين لا يتجاوزن عدد أصابع اليد والرجل من إختراق تنظيم هائل كجماعة الإخوان المسلمين...في هذا لك أن تسأل الرفاق في الإشتراكيين الثوريين عن نجاحاتهم الباهرة في التعاون والتنسيق مع الإخوان المسلمين حتى وصل بنا الحال الى خطابات جديدة للإشتراكيين الثوريين تكاد تكون متطابقة مع خطابات الإخوان بخصوص "التقديس" للحركة الأخيرة لحزب الله..وها هو لبنان يعود 20 عاما الى الوراء ويجري تفكيك منظم للدولة اللبنانية ويقتل العشرات وتدمر البنية التحتية وتعاد صياغة الصراعات في المنطقة لتتحول الى صراعات سنية-شيعية بدلا من تركيزها السابق على الصراع العربي-الإسرائيلي..

لا أدري كيف أفسر هذه المواقف...فهي ليست في التحليل الأخير غير قفزة طفولية على النواقص التي يواجهها اليسار والقوميين في مصر..فبعد ذوبان حلم المظاهرة المليونية التي سوف تطيح بالنظام، يخرج علينا هؤلاء بتمني نزول الجيش "الوطني" الى الشارع لكي ينهينا من مبارك او التحالف أو الرجاء من الإخوان لكي يساعدوهم..

وكلا الأمرين لأن الجيش والإخوان هما أكبر قوتين منظمتين في البلاد..لا غير..بالله عليكم هل لأحد ان يخبرني كيف تفتقك آذهانك عن طلب التحالف معهما...في حالة بعض الناصريين الجيش..وفي حالتك الإخوان؟

هنا لابد من الإشارة الى التنظيرة الساذجة التي أعلنها الإشتراكيين الثوريين والتي في خلاصتها...

نحن الادرى بمصالح الشعب..تنظيم الإخوان يضم عدد لا بأس منه من هذا الشعب (وكمان منظمين ومسيسين)..والشباب يا عيني مغسول دماغهم بالإيديولوجية الإسلامية..يبقى نعمل أيه؟

نحاول نحتك معاهم ونغزوهم ونصلح أفكارهم عشان حبايبنا دول مضللين...سيبك من كم الغطرسة والنرجسية الموجودة في هذه المحاججة..بس الموضوع كله عامل كده زي نملة عايزة تأكل فيل!!

يعني انا بقترح أن إحنا بدل مندور عن الجيش والإخوان عشان يخلصونا...وعمرهم ما حيعموا ده...نحاول نبني قوة ديموقراطية وعقلانية تقدر تعمل توازن في المجتمع مع الدولة والإخوان..وبالمناسبة أنت بتعمل ده مثلا في البلوغ بتاعك...معلش ربما أنت شايف أنو نضال جزئي وبسيط في الصورة الكبرى..بس هي الحياة كده..وخصوصا لو كنوا عايزين نعمل حاجة ديموقراطية بجد!

يا عم نكتة، مفيش حاجة اسمها 30 فبراير أصلا الموضوع كله نكتة.

طيب لو أنا بتكلم جد كان هيبقى عنوان التدوينة بيقول أني جزء من طابور خامس؟؟!!!

و بعدين حسب فهمي مش ده موقف الاشتراكيين الثوريين من الأخوان، موقفهم أن الأخوان تيار فيه تناقض و فيه جماهير انحيازها الطبقي يساري و دي مش جماهير مضحوك عليها ولا حاجة لأن فيه قيادات كده برضه دي بس جماهير شايفة أن المرجعية الاسلامية كافية لجمعهم مع الآخرين.

ده غير أن نظرة الاشتراكيين الثوريين كش معتبرة الأيديولوجية الاسلامية في حد ذاتها شيئ سلبي ولا معتبرة أن الناس مغسول دماغها.

بس طبعا بما أنك فهمت النكتة على أنها جد طبيعي تفهم الكلام دي من خطاب الاشتراكيين.

مخترع هذة الجماعة واد حشاش تقيل -لان التاريخ لم يذكر ان شهر فبراير يضاف الية يوم كل رابع سنة- اما ان يصاف الية يوم اخر فدة لا يتأتى الا على رص حجر الجوزة مع استخدام تعميرة هبو من اللى وصا عليها حسان اليمانى- ما علينا الظاهر ان سعادتك اخوانجى حساس -مش حشاش-ما ان لمحت اسم الاخوان حتى حضر عندك عفريت ولامؤاخذة - واتبعت المنهج الحساسى - دون التفكير والعياذ باللة - يا راجل هوا فية برضة حاجة اسمها 30 فيراير؟ طب قول مثلا 32 اغسطس او حتى 37 يوليو حتى الكلام يبقى معقول شوية- مساء الخير بالليل

كان وراجي مش حشيش

الظاهر فعلا ان العملية عايزة دراسة جادة-وان كان من رأيى ان مية الجوزة كانت مستبدلة بالمدعوق اللى اسمة الوراجى- حيث ان ابخرة الحشيش اذا عبرت الوراجى حاتسطلة, وخد عندك بقى - دا لازم يطلع اليوم 37 والشهر57 والسنة تبقى سنة واحد مسطول وصباح الليل بالخير ولا مؤاخذة

Although I do hold the MB high in my mind for all what they are doing for the sake of this country, and all people who are sent to prison just for saying the true words and demanding the natural rights of any human.

I don't agree that MB may be the right choice for this country, as I believe they will turn to be worst than the current regime beside I really care about their history with KSA funds.

MB are changing this is true but is this change a result for a real core changes or another way to approach more people from this country.

I believe that what is for god is for god and what is for caser is for caser, this is the only way to improve any country and achieve the required democracy. You can take what happen in Somalia during the world cup they just shoot the people because they were watching the game and the Islamic courts declared that this is prohibited.

It is the religion of merci and diversity which will be used to shoot us all because fawazeer ramadan is 2omaar when the MB come to rule this country. I am sorry for frankly opposing u, have a good day

www.elmastaba.blogspot.com

I don't totally disagree, I still think they're better than the NDP but this doesn't mean I want them to rule, what I want is democracy and I don't buy the argument that we should not ask for democracy cause it will only lead to the ikhwan.

I want democracy and I want the Egyptian people to choose whoever they want.

but what's being discussed here has nothing to do with who will rule after the NDP goes away (if ever), what we're talking about is if there is space for collaboration in the fight for democracy.

oh and I support any fascist regime that will end fawazir ramadan :-)

و ليه بالانجليزي؟!

صفحة إخوان بالإنجليزي يبقى أكيد موجهة للاستهلاك الخارجي.

ما قلتش عيب و لا حرام. دا طبييعي جدا.

لكن لما علاء يكتب للإخوان علشان يحمسهم و يتكلم عن الاتحاد مع بقية المعارضة يبقى لازم يكون بالعربية و في المواقع ال بيقراها أغلب الإخوان ال إذا انطبقت عليهم الإحصاءات المصرية العامة يبقوا بيقروا عربي بالعافية.

(و لو أن جمهور إنترنت مختلف طبعا و مش الحالة العامة، لكن لا زالت العربية هي المفضلة عندهم على ما أرى)

و دا علشان يكون في كلام و رد و أخد و نقاشات.

الواضح لي أنه زي ما أنت شايف المرات القليلة ال الإخوان اتكلموا فيها عن غيرهم كانت على الموقع ال بالإنجليزية. أنا جاي أهدي النفوس و مش قصدي حاجة :)

ممكن تكون بداية، و ممكن تكون زي ما هي العادة عندنا أن القنوات الإعلامية ال بلغات أجنبية فيها حرية أكبر و القائمين عليها لهم فكر و اعتبارات مختلفة، لكن دا ما يمنعش أني كنت أحب أغلبية الإخوان ال بيستعملوا وب يكون في إمكانهم أنهم يقروا و ينورونا برأيهم و دا غالبا مش هيحصل في الوضع الحالي.

ممكن تحط ترجمة بالعربي عندك و تجرب و لو هم ربطوا لها يبقى كويس و لو أنه مش هيفرق كتير لأن ال هيروح هناك أساسا هيكون من جمهور الإنجليزية.

و الله أنا اتعزمت أكتب على الصفحة الانجليزي مش على الصفحة العربي، غالبا تحليلك أن الحرية و الفكر على الصفحة الانجليزي أوسع من على الصفحة العربي (مثلا الصفحة الانجليزي عندها rss بس برضه الصفحة الانجليزي A$P)

هما محددوش أكتب ايه، و أنا لقيت المنطقي أني أكتب خطاب للأخوان مش أكتب عن الأخوان.

أيوه، أنا فاهم أن هو دا ال أنت اتعزمت عليه؛ و كمان مش معترض على الموضوع نفسه، بالعكس تماما.

لكن أنا باقول أننا كان ممكن نستغل دا بأنك تطلب من محرر الإنجليزية أنه يكلملك محرر العربية مثلا، و هو بغض النظر عن النتيجة هتكون الحركة دي مسبار نستكشف به أعماق العلاقة بينهم، و نعرف إن كان تحليلي صحيح فعلا.

دا مش تأنيب، لكن دروس مستفادة.

هو أنا مش مستغرب ده منك يا أخ علاء لكن انا لي سؤال ورجاء أولا نرجو أعلان الهيئة الحزبية العليا في القريب العاجل منعا للغلط ودرءاً للفتن

ثانيا: أرجو أقصاء أمي عن الموضوع تماما انا مصدقت الزوبعة هديت والواد اعترف بغلطته وتاب وأساب..فهتخلنيش اتغابي عليك

ثالثاً : انت مش شايف ان ده خروج عن الخط السياسي للحركة وخاصة بيان تشرين الأول ..؟؟ أخاف من الفتنة وانشقاق الصف ًــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــ

  • وحياة أسواق بدر يا شيخ ترجم البتاع اللي فوق ده خليك شعبوي

معرفش وصلك البيان اللي طلعته القيادة التاريخي في السجون ولا لأ، للأسف اضطرينا نأتمن أحد القوميين على البيان ده و طبعا كعادة القوميين انزعجوا من الخطاب الشعبوي الفوضوي و توهوا البيان.

المهم البيان وضح ازاي أن 30 فبراير محتاجة تنضم ثم تنشق الي أممية ما و بما أن آخر أمميا تروتسكية و ماسخة قوي مينفعش ننضم ليها، و بعدين لو انضممنا ليها و بعدين انشقينا الاشتراكيين الثوريين هيفتكرونا رايحينلهم و مش هنخلص زن و أنت عارفهم لما يحاولوا يجندوا. المهم طلعت أنا بافتكاسة أن الأممية الجديدة هي الأممية الاسلامية، و بالتالي لا مفر من الانضمام ليها ثم الانشقاق عنها.

و من هنا بدأنا، متفتكرش أن تعذيب و اعادة احتجاز الشرقاوي ده كان صدفة، أحنا عملنا دي بالقصد عشان نعدي على أكبر عدد ممكن أماكن الاحتجاز و عشان نطول الحبسة و نوزع نفسنا في أيام مختلفة على النيابة، و بدأنا في تجنيد عناصر اسلامية قابلناها في النيابة و أمن الدولة، و ده كان عن طريق استخدام مجلات ميكي (خصوصا الأعداد اللي متوافقة مع الشريعة). و كان أكبر نجاح لينا عندما أقنعنا المعتقلين اضافة تحرير العراق على مطالب الاضراب الأول.

المهم في البيان بدأنا نداء لكل المناضلين المنضمين الي أحزاب و حركات رسمية أن يتركوا مناصبهم و ينضموا الي 30 فبراير، موجهناش الدعوة دي للاسلاميين لسه عشان منخضهمش، لكن في اللحظة المناسبة (غالبا هكون راكب قطر من ألمانيا لروسيا)، هعلن على الرفاق انشقاقنا التام عن الأممية الاسلامية ال15 و هنجاهر بالدعوة و هتبقى لمة.

أما بخصوص الترجمة فده دورك يا رفيق، محدش قالك ولا ايه؟ أنت دلوقتي بقيت فضيلة المترجم العام، و ده منصب مهم جدا بما أننا بقينا بلد ترجمنات (خصوصا بعد فك المفاعل النووي و بناء منتجع سياحي مطرحه).

حلوة التحشيشة دي يا زميل

أحا هما فكوا المفاعل النووي !! بأقترح ندعوا لمظاهرة فورية بالمايوهات الشرعية بس انت عندك معلومات عن سعر تذكرة دخول المنتجع؟؟

جاري ترجمة النص الي الأسبانية بهدف وصوله للجالية الأسلامية :(

السلام عليكم بالنسبه للقول بان الاخوان حذرين زياده عن اللزوم وان عندهم هوس امني . انا في اعتقادى ان اكلام ده فيه مبالغه شويه خصوصا ان معظم المعتقلين اللي فى السجون الان_ وقبل ذللك _ من شباب وقيادات الاخوان . و متنساش ان تاريخ الاخوان مع السلطه بيفرض التعامل بشىء من الحذر (المفيد لسير لعمل مش خوف على الافراد بس ). كنت اوافقك الرأى لو ان الحذر ده مش لازم او حيعطل الشغل او للاستسهال لكن الواقع غير كده خالص و الدليل المظاهرات والمسيرات والهجمه اللى على الخوان الايام دى و اعتقال قياديين و افراد كتير منهم

واخيرا اتمنى ان يبقى فيه تعاون بين كل الاطياف والقوى السياسيه بدل الخلاف وتبادل الاتهامات والسباب واللى مش هيفيد حد الا السلطه اللى كبسه على نفسنا كلنا. زى الاتنين اللى بيتخانقوا مين يسوق المركب وهو اصلا مخروم وهيغرق بيهم هما الاتنين . وعلى رأى المثل انا وابن عمى على الغريب

سلام

الحذر ليس بسبب الأمن طبعا فالأخوان مستعدين للتضحية و بعدين بيتقبض عليهم من بيوتهم فمش فارقة.

لكن لازلنا نتمنى أن أداء زي الاتحاد الحر و مظاهرات التضامن مع القضاة و المظاهرات الفجائية للتضامن مع المقاومة اللبنانية و الفلسطينية تبقى القاعدة مش الاستثناء و العمل المشترك يكون أكثر لأن القضايا المشتركة كتيييييييرة.

و مش كفاية يعذر بعضنا بعضا فيما اختلفنا، محتاجين نتكلم و نتعرف على بعضنا بعضا أكثر، ممكن نقنع بعضا بعضا شوية أو على الأقل نزيل حواجز و نلاقي مواضيع مشتركة أكثر.

I am very sorry to express my total desapointement over ur support to Hezbollah and actually encouraging ppl in Egypt to act the same. However heroic move u feel they have done; the end result is that they drove back Lebanon and its ppl more than 20 years back.. destroyed everything they spent tears and sweat building.. engaging the whole area in some sort of "Adventure" as u may call it so uncalculated. I would highly stress that ur intentions to save the country and have democracy rule might be far off from the MB intentions. Some are drawn with love and passion; some are drawn with holy war ideas.. and if u ask me if i wanna trade who Egypt is now compared to having it like an Afganistan heaven.. i think i already made my choice.!

اكتر شئ عجبني فيك يا علاء هو عدم حكمك مسبقا على اي تيار الا بعد ان تدرسه و تراه والأخوان زيهم زي غيرهم بهم اللي يعجب و لا يعجب اي فرد بس ده لا يمنع اننا نحترم جميعا كفاحهم انا شخصيا احترم اي حد يعارض كوهين العرب حسني اولمارت مبارك ياريت فعلا ننسى اي خلافات بين اي تيارات مسم و مسيحي و علمتني و لاديني و اي تيار كلنا ايد واحده ضد الطغيان و ضد عصابه مبارك اللي كل يوم بيثبت انه اسوأ حاكم لمصر منذ فجر التاريخ صدقوني انا واثق ان المواطن المصري لم تمر عليه ايام من الذل و الهوان مثل ايام مبارك وصدقوني كرابيج الجلاد لا تفرق معها ظهر من تضرب فلا يوجد فرق بين ظهر الأخوان و اي تيار اخر كلنا في الضرب سواء (( سلومه الأقرع مايعرفش أبوه )) و يبدو ان قدرك يا علاء ان تكون همزة الوصل اللتي يتجمع في مدونتك كل التيارات و يتحدثون بمنتهى الأخلاص ويجمعهم رغم اختلاف تياراتهم الفكريه رغبه صادقه في التغيير و التخلص من واقع مؤلم مفروض علينا من ربع قرن و نخاف ان يفرض علينا ابنائه لربع قرن قادم

أنا بحاول كمان أحكم على أفراد مش تيارات و أحكم على مواقف أفراد من كل قضية، مثلا اليسار الديمقراطي فيه ناس واخدة مواقف تقارب الاسلاموفوبيا و ناس ضد المقاومة بشكل مبالغ فيه يحسسك أنهم معندهمش مشكلة مع الامبريالية خالص.

في نفس الوقت لي أصدقاء في التيار ده مش مقتنعين بالمواقف دي أو مش واخدينها بالحدة دي.

و كمان نفس الناس اللي واخدة المواقف اللي مش عاجباني دي ليها كلام عاجبني في الاقتصاد.

يبقى أنا حكمي على التيار ايه؟ ولا أعرف.

و بعدين لنفرض، أنا حكمي على الليبراليين سلبي جدا، بس أصحابي و رفاقي و اشتغلت معاهم في قضايا مشتركة و مستعد أساعدهم في أنهم يعبروا عن نفسهم في قضايا ملناش فيها مواقف مشتركة كمان.

…و هو تحديدا السبب وراء وجود تنظيمات وهمية مثل متخلفين من أجل التغيير و 30 فبراير: أفراد يشتغلون مع أي جهة على القضايا التي تتوافق مع عقيدتهم.

يا أصدقائي،

دعونا ننقل هذا الحوار خطوة الى الامام بعيدا عن مناقشة النقاط المتعلقة بحزب الله (على أهميتها)..

أعتقد أن النقطة المهمة التي يجب البدء منها هو ما أورده علاء في أحد رسائله (بالانجليزية)..وهنا أقتبس "ما نتحدث عنه هو إمكانية خلق مساحة للتعاون (بين الاخوان وغير الاخوان) في النضال من أجل الديموقراطية (في مصر)."

هذه المسألة في غاية الأهمية، ولكن قبل الدخول في أي حوار أعتقد إنه من الأهمية بمكان تحديد شروط وأسس هذا التعاون والحوار.

حتى الآن، لم ألحظ أي تعديل مهم في فكر وممارسة الجسم الرئيسي لجماعة الإخوان المسلمين، الذي لازال في غاية البعد عن الجوهر الحقيقي للممارسة الديموقراطية كما أفهمها. فعند النظر مثلا الى وثيقة الإصلاح التي أصدرها الإخوان في مارس 2004 وهي أهم وثيقة توضح المبادىء الرئيسية لفكر الجماعة، نجد انها توافق على تأسيس أحزاب بشرط أن تكون جميعها إسلامية. كما تشترط الوثيقة أن يقوم "نظام دستوري ديموقراطي في نطاق مبادىء الإسلام" وغيرها من المقولات السلطوية "كتحقيق الربانية في المجتمع" وغتاحة الفرصة للأزهر في منع ما يخالف "ثوابت الأمة" (يمكنك الإطلاع على الوثيقة بالتفصيل في موقع الإخوان).

قد يحتج البعض بدعوى أن مياه كثيرة سالت تحت جسر الإصلاح في مصر خلال العامين الماضيين وأن الجماعة وكوادرها أصبحوا أكثر حساسية للمشروع الديموقراطي بحكم إنخراطهم في الصراع ضد النظام من ناحية، وتنافسهم او تعاونهم مع أحزاب المعارضة من ناحية أخرى…

ولكن،

دعوني أورد الامثلة التالية:

في التحالف المضحك الذي سعى اليه فصيل ما يدعى بالإشتراكيين الثوريين مع الاخوان، لاحظتك كيف تعامل الإخوان بكل غطرسة وعنجهية مع هذا التنظيم القزم، في خلال المظاهرات التي أصر فيها الإخوان على رفع المصاحف على الرغم من مطالبات كمال خليل أو في الحوارات التي كانت تنظمها الجبهة التي دخلوا فيها (لو فيه أي حد فيكم يعرف كمال خليل، ممكن هو يقول ده شخصيا..).

نفس الطريقة المتغطرسة تعامل بها الإخوان مع حركة أكبر قليلا وهي حركة كفاية (وفي هذا يسأل مثلا جورج إسحاق أو أحمد بهاء شعبان أو عبد الحليم قنديل أو أبو العلا ماضي..حسب ميول الواحد فيكم)…وطبعا كلكم عارفين اللي حصل في الإنتخابات لما مرشحي الإخوان نافسوا في الدوائر التي نافس فيها مرشحي اليسار وخاصة في الإسكندرية وبورسعيد والقليوبية والمنيا (ولم ينجو منها غير الراجل بتاع القبة..أسف لم أتذكر أسمه)…ولم يعطي الإخوان أصواتهم لأحد من مرشحي المعارضة سوى لحمدين صباحي وذلك فضلا عن درجة قرابة زوجته لأحد رموز الإخوان، فانه يمثل الطبعة القومية الرديئة لفكر الإخوان (ببساطة يعني أنيل من الإخوان نفسهم)…

كمان، لو ألقيتم نظرة على الرسائل الأسبوعية التي يوجهها فضيلة المرشد دام ظله الى كوادره سترون العجب…آخر الرسائل اللطيفة هي تلك التي تعيد مقولات (جاهلية الحكام) والتي أطلقها سيد قطب..وإنتو عارفين ماذا حصل بعدها….

كمان..دعونا نلقي نظرة على أداء الإخوان في البرلمان (قضية البهائيين (والذين دعا احد نوابهم الى فرض حد الردة عليهم (يدبحوا يعني) - فيلم عمارة يعقوبيان – وإدخال عقوبة جلد الصحفيين وهذه أمثلة بسيطة)..

أيه تاني..أنا بصراحة مش مطمئن لموضوع القضاة ده كمان لعدة أسباب (ليس منها الدعاية الحكومية السخيفة لموضوع الإختراق الإخواني لنادي القضاة)…

أولا أن السادة القضاة أنفسهم لا يطالبون بأشياء تخالف جوهر العقيدة الإخوانية..فمطالبهم الرئيسية تتركز على تحقيق إستقلال القضاء عن سيطرة السلطة التنفيذية (ليست مشكلة للإخوان..بالعكس ده أحسن..)

ثانيا..إن النظام القضائي المصري مزروع بشدة في مبادىء الشريعة الإسلامية (قبل حتى دستور 1971 بتاع الشريعة المصدر الأساسي للقوانين) وعلشان كده نلاحظ كم الإحالات الدينية التي أوردها القضاة خلال مناقشاتهم لمشروع إستقلال السلطة القضاية…

وأخيرا وده المهم..أن السادة القضاة لم يركزوا في مطالبهم (بره موضوع إستقلال القضاة) على أي شيء سوى ضمان نزاهة الإنتخابات (علشان الحكومة كانت عايزة تدبسهم في الموضوع ده)…يعني لم يتحدثوا مثلا عن موضوع نشر الحريات ولا شكل النظام السياسي ولا جمعية منتخبة لتعديل الدستور..ألخ وهي المبادىء الرئيسية للتغيير وليس فقط ضمان نزاهة الإنتخابات…والإخوان برضوا معندهمش مشكلة في موضوع أن الإنتخابات تكون حرة (طالما هم خارج السلطة)….

يعني بإختصار دي تحفظاتي، اللي شايفها مبررة..طبعا ده لا يعني أننا نقف مع السلطة في رفضها لإعطاء المشروعية للاخوان..بس لازم نسعى الى محاولة الدعوة الى دمج الاخوان في المجال السياسي ولكن بشروط إحترامهم للعبة الديموقراطية..وإنشاء حزب سياسي..وحل الجماعة..والتنظيم الدولي..وعدم تلقي الاموال من الخارج..وإحترام الحريات الأساسية…وبإستثناء ذلك..فأن أي تهريج زي اللي بيعملوا الإشتراكيين الثوريين واللي على شاكلتهم لا يعني سوى الإنتحار لمصر!!!!

yonssor deenak ya ragel.

I am now glad there is some ppl really aware of what is going on with the muslim brotherhood.

اعتقد ان أنا موافقك في أكثرية كلامك عن ان الإخوان موقفهم في النهاية سلطوي و مبني بشكل أساسي على مبدأ الحاكمية و هو كل شيئ يجب على تيار ديمقراطي علماني ان يرفضه. موقفهم زي ما انت بنقول بان بشكل واضح (و مخيف) في موضوع البهائيين و فيلم عمارة يعقوبيان (انا معرفش حاجة غن موضوع جلد الصحفيين و لكن لو صح تبقة مصيبة فعلاً). و طبعا "ديمقراطية في نطاق مبادئ الإسلام" يعني بالعربي دولة اسلامية قد تتفضل على احسن الأحوال باعطاء حقوق طائفية للأقليات و لكنها سوف تفرض حجر على حرية التعبير و حرية الديانة بإسم ثوابت و مقدسات الأمة الإسلامية.

بخصوص ملاحظاتك عن القضاه أنا معرفش إلي كان بيدور خلف الكواليس لكن اعتقد و اتمني أن علاء يوضح النقط إلي انت رفعتها.

اعتقد ان موضوع التحالف جه بشكل اساسي من باب ان يختصر الاشتراكيين الثوريين على انفسهم البحث عن "الشعب المفقود" حيث ان الاخوان عندهم بالفعل دعم من قطاعات عريضة من الشعب. يمكن عندهم أمل ان النضال المشترك يعطي دفعة من داخل الإخوان تجاه افكار اكثر ديمقراطية، و ده اقل ما يقال علبه انه تفاؤل مش محله. يمكن شايفيين ان الاخوان فعلا عايزيين ديمقراطية حقيقية و ده يبقى نوع من السذاجة في تحليل برنامجهم السياسي. لكن في النهاية المشكلة الحقيقية هي ان التحالف ده قد يتطلب الهبوط بماعيير الاشتراكيين الثوريين لإرضاء الاخوان. موقف فاشي زي موقف الاخوان تجاه البهائيين كان المفروض الشتراكيين الثوريين يقلبوا الدنيا عليه. لكن محصلش.

في النهاية النقطة الاساسية في وجهة نظري هي ان (بغض النظر عن الإخوان و الاشتراكيين الثوريين) ان التيار العلماني الديموقراطي (و إلي أنا حاسب علاء غليه. لو غلط يبقى يا ريت يصححلي) لازم ياخد مواقف مبدأية بغض النظر عن سخط الإخوان أو حتى المواطن العادي إلي في الشارع. كده ممكن يكسبوا ناس بشكل حقيقي (و لو أقل) بدل من ان يكسبوا رضا ناس أكتر مع التفيرط في مبادئهم.

أنا علماني و ديمقراطي اه، بس معرفش اذا كان ممكن نتكلم عن تيار علماني ديمقراطي بنتمي اليه.

الموضوع بالنسبة لي أبسط من كده بكتير، أنا حاليا مشارك في حاجات ليها أهداف محدودة كلها بتصب في اتجاه الديمقراطية و مفيش حاجة منها علمانية بالذات، حاجات من نوع مناهضة التعذيب، استقلال القضاء، استقلال الجامعة، انتخابات نزيهة، الخ.

دي مطالب أساسية متفق عليها ناس كتير رغم أن ممكن يكون بينهم اختلافات جذرية، معرفش ليه الناس مفترضة أن اليميني العلماني أقربلي من اليساري الاسلامي مثلا، لكن بنشتغل مع الجميع طالما بيطالبوا بنفس المطالب.

و صور التنظيم اللي أنا بشارك فيها معتمدة على الفرد أساسا و بالتالي مش شايف أن وجود تناقض داخل التيار اللي بينتمي اليه الفرد اللي واقف معايا في اللحظة دي سبب لاقصائي الفرد ده.

و بما أننا بعاد جدا عن أن أرائنا تبقى ليها تأثير و بعاد جدا عن أننا نطبق أيديولوجياتنا ملوش أي معنى الخناق على نقاط الاختلاف في حالة وجود فرص عديدة للعمل على نقاط مشتركة.

الاعتراض فين بقى؟

الانتحار مرة واحدة؟

عموما جميل اللي أنت كتبته فوق، في ناس كتير لما بتنتقد الأخوان مبتقولش أي كلام محدد رغم أن الأخوان مليانين بلاوي (زيهم زي غيرهم).

هضيف على الأمثلة بتاعتك ناس زي لقمة اللي كان حارم عمال الأسبستوس من حقوقهم و الكتاتني اللي طبق على نادي أعضاء هيئة التدريس 15 سنة بتنسيق مع الحكومة و البتاع التاني اللي كل شوية يقدم قانون للرقابة على الأنترنت.

محمد طق حنك كان كتب تدوينة عبقرية اسمها لماذا لن أنتخب الأخوان أيام مجلس الشعب، متكلمش فيها عن نوايا و مؤامرات و قرائة في كتب تاريخية اتكلم بكل بساطة عن أداء نواب الأخوان المنتخبين في 2000 و أولوياتهم وفقا لبرنامجهم المعلن و دعايتهم الانتخابية.

check the last sentence in this blog

هو الفتح قبل التسليك ولا التسليك قبل الفتح?! http://afkarmisry.blogspot.com/2006/07/blog-post_25.html بالأمس اتصل بي احد الاصدقاء و اخبرني ان هناك مفاجأة حازلت ان اعرف منه ما هي لكنه لم يخبرني....حسنا امري لله قمت و ارتديت ملابسي و انتظرته حتى صلاة المغرب و تقابلنا ....قلت له ما هي المفاجأة كنت اظن ان هناك احتفال ما صديق لم اقابله منذ فترة فإذا به يقول لي في مظاهرة قلت له فين فقال لي هنا في العمرانية...!!!!....نسيت ان اخبركم ان صديقي من الاخوان .

أقرأ الباقي على المدونة

الأخوان عملوا عشرات المظاهرات المفاجئة في الجيزة، خطوة لطيفة و ايجابية منهم بس رجعوا لعادتهم بتاعت رفض الانضمام لحاجة داعي ليها ناس تانية و مش هينزلوا مظاهرة الأربعاء و لو حتى بتمثيل بسيط :-(

please, when u write to egyptian parties just write in arabic, but when u talk about lebanon or phlastine, write in english, we need to let the foreign nation know about our arab cases, we need to tell the people around the world that israel is not a nation, it's an occupation, we need to let them know that there was people in phlastine befor 1948, and that jews took there lands with weapons, we need to create a puplic openion around the world that support the arab cases, and exert pressure on foriegn governments to solve the phlastinian case forever, the solution is not in war or destroying israel, it is in invitening the egyptian jews in israel to return to egypt, because there fathers and grandfathers are buried in egypt, they are egyptian in last inspite of there religion, and they wont profit from the phlastenian suffring, also every jew from other nationality return to his own land, that is the solution to the phlastenian case.

sorry, I got excited and angry, anyway I guss that is how we all are today...

It is ridiculous to claim that Israel is a brutal occupation without regard for human life. Israel targets its enemies and the only reason civilians get killed is either by tragic pure accident or because Hizbollah fires from a civilian position. That is a disregard on the part of Hezbollah for their safety, but it is overlooked so that they can call Israel names. Those who wish to destroy Israel are 100% responsible for unrest in the region, and this is exploited by powers such as the US that have their own interests. I guarantee you that if Hamas, Hizbollah, Syria, Iran and the like, all of them, were to acknowledge Israel, enter negotiations and forbid violence against Israel, not a single Israeli shot would be fired. For this reason it is a great shame that you are like this in support of the Muslim Brotherhood and I will not be visiting your blog. For a moment just now I was angry at having once signed a petition for you, and am feeling thoroughly betrayed. Suggesting to take a leaf out of Hizballah's book with their kidnappings, rockets and guerilla warfare, it seems you would soonest be plunged into complete darkness. I made the effort to consult with Lebanese and spoke with a Christian and a Sunni and both said the same thing: get Syria out of our country. Perhaps you only care for Shias.

Alaa,

I wrote the Egyptian Embassy and the US State Department in Washington DC to plead for your release from prison. I thought you were for democratic reform in Egypt. Apparently, not. The Muslim Brotherhood and Hizballah support Sharia Law. Sharia Law is not compatible with democracy. Tell us this is some kind of ruse that you now support Hiballah.

Effendi

not all Muslim Brothers want sharia law, and I can't see how sharia law is not compatible with democracy.

and newsflash, democracy means the people get to choose who they want, the fact is given a chance for free elections many Egyptians will vote for the Muslim brotherhood, i you have any respect for democracy you should recognise the rights of these Egyptians to elect whomever they want.

are you telling me that my fellow Egyptians who braved the legions of thugs and police soldiers just to vote, the ones who actually died while trying to cast a vote against a corrupt dictatorship, the ones who where ingenious enough to bring ladders and climb polling stations and enter through the windows cause the thugs threatened to kill them at the doors are all incompatible with democracy?

I don't just now support HizbAllah, I'm for armed resistance against the Israeli occupatin and the zionists state's very existance in general, next time you sign a petition for any Arab put in mind that they most probably support armed resistance and are firm anti-zionists.

Thank you alaa. You have no conscience. You are a warmonger. I find it very hard now to care about your freedom since you believe in fighting Israel to the death. There are some really horrible people in this world. And Israel is always listening - as they should - to the humanitarian concerns of such sworn enemies. Think about it. Why should anyone respect you and your struggle? You are actually a much smaller person than it first seemed. But a big disappointment.

For those who are astonished that democracy campaigners in Egypt (and the Arab World) would be the same people who support the Palestinian and Lebanese resistance can't get it in their heads that our freedom from the autocratic regimes that are suppressing us, is linked INTEGRALLY with the fight against the US domination of the region, as it's the one sponsoring those dictators, and sponsoring this militaristic state called Israel. That's why we support armed resistance against US troops in Iraq, and Israelis in Palestine.

I totally support you Alaa.

i dont think that this problem of bieng to careful only applies to ikhwan, it applies to all tight organizations. the only reason kefaya and other civil movements did not suffer the same fate is that they are losely knit organization without heads or tails just like when comparing a big software company like M$ to the open source movement, the reason that the open source code kicks ass and that the corporate code sucks is tightly knit organization which are slow by nature.

that is why and sort of change to the current political status in egypt will not come from organizations but rather from a mass of people which do not have a common agenda, which is a good thing we do not need a second july revolution, we need a revolution on which no organization comes out winning on the other side. so either all lose or none participate in the first place.